Perpetual Choirs (2)

home/index THE PERPETUAL CHOIRS OF BRITAIN
- Facts, Forgeries and Falsehoods.

In 1796 AD, an edition of a translation of FABLIAUX (TALES) appeared annotated by George Ellis, sometime Fellow of both the Royal Society and the Society of Antiquaries, and a close friend of Sir Walter Scott. On Page 265, Ellis discusses SIR LANVAL with references to Glastonbury. Included are a four line Welsh text (known as a Triad - or 'triade' here) and an English translation of it. The theme is the Perpetual Choirs of Britain, and the three (hence Triad) sites given in the translation are Isle of Avalon, Salisbury and Bangor Iscoed (which is a few miles south-east of Wrexham, basically). Here is the relevant page c/o the British Library - and my thanks!

You can find the same in the 1815 edition (page 231):

http://books.google.com/books?id=rsAtAAAAMAAJ&pg=PA51&lpg=PA51&dq
=lanval+way+ellis&source=web&ots=0L_HL0QvwZ&sig
=6uDWxzoGx7fb-kVNUDVaReTlqjA#PPA231,M1

The Welsh text repeated above is very similar to that carried by the current Triads authority, Dr. Rachel Bromwich. Regarding the three sites named, Bromwich carries no textual identification of Bangor Iscoed site either in the actual Welsh text she gives or its translation - a manuscript of Robert Vaughan, mid C17th AD, from his Hengwrt Library collection, Meirionshire, and now known as Peniarth 185. Where Ellis ends 'Mangor is y coed.', Bromwich ends 'Mangor'. That's commonly 'Bangor':

Three Perpetual Harmonies of the Island of Britain:
One was at the Island of Afallach,
and the second at Caer Garadawg,
and the third at Bangor. http://norin77.50megs.com/triads.htm

Bromwich's notes on the texts (and alternative authorities/sources/versions), however, acknowledge the Iscoed site as identification of this Bangor (Mangor): Peniarth 228, "Thos. Wiliems, Trefriw" (and the oldest version of the triad), just gives "Bangawr" - as does Robert Vaughan, Peniarth 185 (the Bangor/Mangor doc. mentioned above) - but John Jones, friend and contemporary of Vaughan, gives "Bangawr vawr yn fford y Maelawr" (Maelawr ... both 'plain' and places in the marches of Wales where trading could take place/market whilst 'fford' means river-crossing/ford - presumably the Dee, as in Bangor-on-Dee (Bangor Is-y-Coed, Wrexham)*. The MS BM/BL Addl. 14873 (Wm. Morris)** carries "Bangor Vawr yn Iscoed ym Maelawr" (Jones, again, cited Bromwich p.217, this manuscript being attributed to his great friend Robert Vaughan of Hengwrt whose other version - the Bangor/Mangor above - is held by Bromwich to be an abridgement).

*Nicholas R. Mann, THE ISLE OF AVALON , Sacred Mysteries... (2001 AD), and now on googlebooks, manages to locate a Bangor Is-coed in "South Wales". Neat trick - given Wrexham's up near Chester! But at least he puts a ? against the identification of Caer Garadawg with Stonehenge. Like several others, Mann mentions 12 Perpetual Choirs. Others cite John Michell as the source for the idea ... but he also thought 10. (See pp. 129-30). I have discussed this with the author and he agrees there has been an unfortunate confusion of Llantwit (in the South) with Iscoed ... and I all too readily admit such things are possible from and in my own endeavours!

I also note the Latitude of the Bangor Iscoed monastery - pretty much 53 degrees north. A road called 'Abbey' at this Bangor is at 53 00 03. So if you like 53 ...

**Martin/NLW (my thanks!) notes Bromwich consistently attaches Wm. Morris copy to BM/BL Addl. 14873 rather than 14867 - I note elsewhere that Mary Jones, say, attaches Wm. Morris to 14867.

The last version of John Jones appears to source George Ellis, above, but NOT Iolo Morgan(n)wg et al - Series 1 of Y MYVYRIAN ARCHAIOLOGY, p.17, 1801. Textually, the Iolo Series 1 Triad agrees with Vaughan's OTHER version, the abridged one, in Peniarth 185 - and NLW* has been very helpful in pretty much establishing that it is the almost exact copy of this abridged version, by Evan - Ieuan Fardd - Evans, a man with access to both Hengwrt and Peniarth, plus the one whose copy was made available to Iolo Morganwg's Myvyr,** co-authors, Pughe and Jones, c/o Panton (Jnr.), which seems to source the Perpetual Choirs triad in that book's Series 1 (Myvyr. Series 1 80, Bromwich TYP*** 90).

*National Library of Wales ** Y MYVYRIAN ARCHAIOLOGY - also referenced here sometimes as Myvyr. ***Trioedd Ynys Prydein.

William Owen Pughe finds mention in MABINIGI, A BOOK OF ESSAYS, by Charles William Sullivan, p. 6: 'prime informant on Welsh Literature to ... (our) George Ellis'. Not here, though, one suspects - but he did have access to the alternative to the Wm. Morris copy of the Lewis Morris 1738-dated text mentioned above and copied from Vaughan, Peniarth 185. It's called Panton MS 13 (Evan Evans, acquired in 1787 by Paul Panton Snr., son-in-law of William Morris) - and Iolo Morganwg's co-authors, Pughe and Jones, were lent it by Paul Panton Jnr. That authors of Myvyr. had access to both the Evans and Wm. Morris MSS., Bromwich notes, 1978 ed. (and carried independently, elsewhere), is clear from text therein, but Bromwich, 1969, makes no mention of Panton 13 (NLW 1982B). It is noted as a source in her 1978 edition, though.

I term Panton 13/Peniarth 185 'Basic' and Wm. Morris BL/BM Addl. 14873 (?14867)/Peniarth 216 'Elaborate':*

* The problem here - Bromwich appears to give BM (BL) Addl. 14873 Wm Morris as the source for Series 1 - but this carries no 'Iscoed' which therefore makes it more like the Vaughan abridgement of John Jones than the Vaughan copy attrib. Wm. Morris. Peniarth 185 would seem a more accurate source for Iolo whilst BM (BL) Addl. 14873 would seem the most likely source for Ellis, above. I tried to put the details together below:

Note 1: John Michell (sadly RIP, 24-04-09 - and my sincere thanks to him, David Wood and Dr. Ian Campbell for all the inspiration!) - unfortunately really does seem to have been on the receiving end of a whole 'history' of some quite remarkable rubbish: Stonehenge, Glastonbury and ("at"/"by") Llantwit from a "standing start" of Caer Caradoc, Glastonbury and Mangor, and where the Caer is Old Sarum and the Mangor is Iscoed, Wrexham! Here is John Michell http://www.unexplained-mysteries.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=104615

Note 2: I wish to qualify Probert's possible role: The Cambro-Britain carries Ambresbury for Caer Caradoc in May 1821 (The Triads, XIX The Cambro-Britain, 386), thus before Probert ... and possibly informing him? Was this his source. perhaps? And was Pughe the seed, or was it "Editor"? Here's the credits in the first The Cambro-Britain (of 1819/20, noting also that the entire Vol II of Sept. 1820-June 1821 is dedicated to Pughe - and Pughe alone):

In the first place he "has to thank that eminent Welsh Scholar, Mr. William Owen Pughe, for many contributions of great interest, as well as for much other valuable information" ... and that's our Mr. Pughe as listed above. And the editor?

- a few "disparities", I notice ... but there's enough there to posit Pughe (they had breakfast together, too) as the source for the 1821 commentary on the triad in the Cambro-Britain replacing the "Ambrosius/Emrys in/at Caer Caradoc "of Iolo/Myvyr. with "Ambresbury", thus sourcing (or anticipating) Probert, 1823? Is this change significant? Depends on what is understood by "Ambresbury", really - its location. Would Stonehenge spring to mind, for instance, if Ambresbury were Amesbury ....

Enter Stukeley FRS: "from (a hill) ... we survey Ambresbury, Vespasian's camp, and Stonehenge ..." = in 1740, Stukeley identified Amesbury (by Stonehenge) with "Ambresbury". http://www.sacred-texts.com/neu/eng/str/str10.htm Stonehenge, A Temple Restor'd to the British Druids, by William Stukeley, [1740], at sacred-texts.com And this identification has secure historical roots: http://www.domesdaybook.co.uk/wiltshire1.html#amesbury Geoffrey of Monmouth (C12th AD http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geoffrey_of_Monmouth) wrote of Ambrose (Emrys) Aurelian, Round Table King Arthur's Dad and aka Ambrosius Aureli(an)us/Aureli(an)us Ambrosius, being buried within the Giant's Dance (Stonehenge - this having been brought over by Merlin from Ireland and sited near the "Convent of Ambrius" (Ambresbury/Amesbury) - and see this and Probert's (borrowed/fabricated) triad 84 trotted out, too, together (Long, WANHM, Vol xvi, pp.11-12, 1876): http://megaliths.wikia.com/wiki/Stonehenge_and_its_Barrows_Text_Scan_B

But (much!) more on this whole topic below. The point here is that we can see Old Sarum (Salisbury) literally morphing into John Michell's Stonehenge Choir site - a site also known as Choir Gaur(e) c/o architect John Wood (1747): http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Wood,_the_Elder and a Dr. John Smith, a work entitled "Choir Gawr ...", http://www.lundyisleofavalon.co.uk/stonehenge/lockyer05.htm Now, given a Choir at Llantwit (c/o Iolo, 1801-ish, and, later, Pughe, 1821: Bangor Illtyd substituted for Bangor-on-Dee/Iscoed), one at Glastonbury (c/o Bangor Widrin/Afallach/Avalon), this Stonehenge Choir/Caer/Cor Gor/Gawr/Gaur(e)/Caer Garadawg conflation, and then add the Gor in Goring, you can see John Michell's idea beginning to form: 4 GOR (Choir) sites laid out on the landscape seeming to fit together like 4 adjacent decagon vertices when you mark them on a map (2 by Michell given below) - as in C(h)o(i)r/Gor/Gaure ... more below. See also the thoroughly researched and referenced: http://druidnetwork.org/en/sacredsites/stonehenge/corgawr/wotsinaname.html

!NOTE: I need to more fully acknowledge the sustained contribution and scholarship of Dr. Rachel Bromwich, her TRIODD YNYS PRYDEIN (TYP) editions sourcing much of the 'endeavour' contained here. She is the deservedly acknowledged expert in this area and I owe her an unreserved debt of thanks.

I need to explain that Peniarth, Panton, BL, NLW etc are names of collections of manuscripts sometimes also indicating their 'home'. BL, for instance, is British Library, but Peniarth and Panton are at NLW, National Library of Wales (NLW), Aberystwyth.

Salisbury, too, finds mention in the Bromwich commentary (but not texts). The Welsh texts given are virtually identical in this here; C(h)aer G/Caradawg/Gariadawc. There are quite a number of Caer Caradocs dotted about, not least at Church Stretton and Clun, so why Salisbury? The answer seems to lie in Geoffrey of Monmouth - he writes of a Kaercaradoc NOT FAR FROM Sarum/Salisbury. NEAR, not AT (which Old Sarum, say, is - noting Ellis, 1796, has 'at'). But that's the likeliest source of the Ellis 'Salisbury', I'll hazard, and Bromwich also notes this Geoffrey of Monmouth reference and calls it 'more natural' (TRIOEDD YNYS PRYDEIN, Rachel Bromwich - for all references see pp. 217-218). John Jones acknowledges using Wiliems (circa 1545-1623, and of Gunpowder Plot connection) as his source and, Bromwich further notes, the Jones version is likely to be the base for that of Vaughan.. Notice, too, that Ellis, above, quite explicitly identifies Caer Caradoc with Salisbury (and perhaps, thus, implicitly, with Old Sarum) - as does Iolo Morganwg, it seems, quite explicitly (c/o Edward/Iolo and Iolo Aneurin Williams, below):

Note: There seems to be no provenance for the Bromwich Triad 90 much before the late C16th AD. It is not a triad from the older Red, Black and White Books (of mid C13th-C15th AD provenance) - Hergest, Caermarthen and Rhydderch .

That both triad traditions, Elaborate and Basic, prospered is evidenced by the Wm. Morris-Ellis-Panizzi strand and that of Evan Evans-Series 1. A deviant variant of the latter, appears in (Mrs.) Robert Sewell's 1847 THE CATECHISM OF THE HISTORY OF THE EARLY CHURCH IN ENGLAND, p. 33, where she cites Bangor Widrin/Glastonbury, Cor Emrys/ Ambresbury and Bangor Illtyd, Glamorganshire and this is the line that leads us towards the later, John Michell, threesome of Llantwit, Glastonbury and Stonehenge:

A. They name three places as having been thus distinguished. Bangor Wydrin or Glastonbury, in Somersetshire ; Cor Emrys or Ambresbury, in Wiltshire ; and Bangor Illtyd in Glamorganshire. There was perpetual service also at Llanelwy or St. Asaph, as we have already mentioned, but probably this may not have been choral worship.*

Mrs. Sewell seems to be building on either THE CAMBRO-BRITAIN, 1821, and/or William Probert, 1823, of whom more below. By way of 'elaborate' tradition contrast, and more accurately reflecting the sites in pre-1800 MSS, see the Rev. William Barnes, NOTES ON ANCIENT BRITAIN AND THE BRITONS, p. 90,1858 :

"A Triad says there were three perpetual choirs in the island of Britain, one in Ynys Avallach, Glastonbury; another at Caer Caradawc, Old Sarum, and the third at Bangor; and at each of those places twenty-four divisions of singers took each an hour of psalmody, which was kept up constantly day and night."

Another Rev., Lionel Smithett Lewis of Glastonbury, refers to Stonehenge, itself, building on the 'Ambresbury'. This is from the 2003 edition of the 1922 ST. JOSEPH OF ARIMATHEA AT GLASTONBURY .... (noting he mentions just 2 of the Choirs - and in a Druidic tradition .... to him): "It is extremely significant that, of the "Three Perpetual Choirs" of Britain, Glastonbury ..... and Ambresbury, close to Stonehenge ..."

The underlining is mine. We've moved from The Cambro-Britain's triad notes of 1821 the shared site identification with Probert of 1823 of Emrys/Ambrosius at Ambresbury, to Smithett's Ambresbury "close to Stonehenge", 1922. That just leaves the using of the "in/at" to put us at Stonehenge itself - although Roger Vermaat - below cited - points the finger at Geoffrey of Monmouth and/or, possibly, the C13th AD poem "Of Arthour and of Merlin" for this by way of a confusion (but none of the above were confused by anyone before The Cambro-Britain of 1821 and Probert, 1823, it seems).* *http://www.vortigernstudies.org.uk/artcit/caerstone.htm - see also "The Auchinleck Manuscript", National Library of Scotland: http://www.nls.uk/auchinleck/mss/arthur.html

In 1830, an edition of ORLANDO (Charlemagne's Roland) appeared. On Page 244 is an identical (?borrowed annotation. The credit is Antonio Panizzi, sometime Professor of Italian at the fledgling University of London and, later, Librarian at the British Museum Library. But suspicious activity is common where Perpetual Choirs are concerned!

In the period 1801-07, one Iolo Morgan(n)wg produced a fraudulent version of the Choirs Triad: Series 3. His sites are commonly translated as being Glastonbury, Stonehenge and Llantwit Major (near where he lived!):

"Tair prif Gyfangor ynys Prydain: Bangor Illtud Farchawg yng Nghaer
Worgorn/Cor Emrys yng Nghaer Caradawg/a Bangor Widrin yn ynys
Afallen."

That's Llaniltyd/Llantwit Major, (Ambrosius at) Caer Caradoc, and Glastonbury (Triad 84, Mvyvr., circa 1801-7).

This is said to be the source for the John Michell CITY OF REVELATION/DIMENSIONS OF PARADISE (et al) 'insight': the Circle of Perpetual Choirs (CPC)*. But is it? Where Michell has "the Choir of Ambrosius at Stonehenge" (supra), Iolo has Ambrosius "at Caer Caradoc". Was Stonehenge, then, this "Caer Caradoc" (especially given Iolo's grandson expressly names Old Sarum for this site - see below)? And what was this "Caer Worgorn" that Llanitud Fawr was "in"? The left version of the sites is from DIMENSIIONS OF PARADISE where the circle indicates by but the text reads "at" whilst the right version is from the earlier CITY OF REVELATION where the diagram indicates at and the text reads "by":

The actual John Michell 1973 (P. 82): " ,,, the Welsh Triads, verses of great antiquity that incorporate oral traditions from prehistoric bardic historians. In one of these, Glastonbury, the Choir of Ambrosius or Stonehenge and Llanilltud Vawr which is by Llantwit Major in Glamorgan are described as the three perpetual choirs of Britain. where 2400 saints maintained a ceaseless chant, 100 saints at each choir for every hour of the day and night" - it's the "In one of these" that's the problem because this particular threesome seems to have no provenance before the 1820s AD (and post-dates Iolo), whilst even the twosome of Glastonbury and Llanilltud cannot be dated to before the beginning of the C19th AD. However, is it possible to confuse Bangor Iscoed with Llantwit Major thus:

"DERIVATION of BANGOR. Many British settlements were known as Bangor, to which was affixed the name of their founders. Bardsey is referred to as Bangor Cadvan yn Enlli, Glastonbury as Bangor Wydrin, and Bangor Is-y-Coed as Bangor Illtyd. Since "Ban" means "place" and "gor" means "choir" it is safe to assume that the word "Bangor" means "the place of the choir"."? Well, that depends on both the Vawr and the Caer Worgorn identifications applied by Iolo and the accuracy of this quote. Geiriador (search bangor) gives "monastery" and "college" for bangor (amongst others - basically "The name 'Bangor' itself is an old Welsh word for a type of fenced-in enclosure" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bangor,_Gwynedd / http://www.bangor-on-dee.co.uk/

*Probert's THE ANCIENT LAWS OF CAMBRIA .... 1823 , is supposedly a translation of Iolo - but he changed details, like substituting - 'Ambresbury' for Iolo's 'Caer Caradoc' in the Iolo Triad 84 (a la The Cambro-Britain's Triad 85 2 years previously) Unless Caer Caradoc and Ambresbury are somehow interchangeable - more (much, much more!) on this below. Did Probert's translation source (and inspire) Michell rather than the Iolo original? It would seem it (and he - and/or the Cambro-Britain) did - along with other possible influences. Probert calls the different triad versions in Iolo et al's Y MYVYRIAN ARCHAIOLOGY, Series 1 and Series 3 of little significant difference from each other. Um! John Michell (DIMENSIONS OF PARADISE) only writes (of his source): "In the Welsh triads, verses which are thought to incorporate elements from ancient bardic lore ...".

Here's the (Michell-alike) Probert (Triad 84 - noting it is an accurate version of the original of Probert's Triad 84, p. 403 - available as a googlebook and carried some way below) http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Triads_of_Britain:

The three perpetual choirs of the Isle of Britain: the choir of Llan Illtyd Vawr, Glamorganshire; the Choir of Ambrosius in Ambresbury; and the choir of Glastonbury. In each of these three choirs there were 2,400 saints; that is, there were a hundred for every hour of the day and the night in rotation, perpetuating the praise and service of God without rest or intermission.

Whatever, I can't help thinking that the threesome Glastonbury, Bangor (?Iscoed) and Caer Caradoc (?Old Sarum) is markedly different from that of Probert: Glastonbury, Bangor Illtyd (Llantwit Major) and Caer Emrys ... Ambresbury)! I think I repeat this observation below.

A note on Druidy and Stonehenge: the identification may date back to the Romans and was about in the mid-C16th AD (Aubrey, TEMPLA DRUIDUM, 1649, for example) to the extent that Inigo Jones, notes published 1655, et al, decry the notion. It survives as a chapter in Aubrey's MONUMENTA BRITANNICA, publ. early C18th AD, a work possibly inspiring William Stukeley, FRS. He appears to bring together the Stonehenge site with Druidry and Ambresbury. Subsequently, the Rev. Smithett. 1922, actually makes this into a Perpetual Choir site identification (along with Glastonbury, noting the - utterly fallacious/spurious - Druidic tradition at both as a kind of combining idea /'glue'). Did Smithett's 'Stonehenge' identification ('near') become conflated with Iolo's in/at of Series 3 of Y MYVYRIAN ARCHAIOLOGY*? *Myvyr.

These are not the only versions: Yarker (1909), claiming Freemasonry tradition, cites Caer-Salog (Salisbury), Avillon (Glastonbury) and Great Bangor* - and makes mention of Culdees. His terms Caer-Salog and Avillon seem rooted in circa 1470 Sir Thomas Malory's MORTE D'ARTHUR . Others claim Druidic and/or Culdee traditions citing Glastonbury, Iona and Mona or even Rosnat/Whithorn:

There is a source for this idea. It offers up Rosnat as an alternative to Bangor Iscoed. Here's p. 437 of An Ecclesiastical History of Ireland, 1822 by the Rev. John Lanigan:

*If I remember, Yarker was a rogue Freemason, of sorts. His threesome is strikingly similar to Jones/Vaughan Peniarth 216 'Elaborate' with only the Maelawr bit missing, really, thus allowing Bangor Vawr to be just Great Bangor (as in the Irish Bangor Mor OR as in the Menair Strait Bangor in Gwynedd . This was Bangor Fawr - http://www.earlybritishkingdoms.com/bios/deinigpn.html - apparently (don't shoot me if I'm wrong here!), Mawr, Fawr and Vawr are pretty much interchangeable as big/great ...

Note (geoffss, 21-06-11) Here's an email I received yesterday in reply to an enquiry I submitted to RILKO regarding John Michell's source for his Choir threesome (and my thanks!):

And we see there Bangor (North Wales), Glastonbury, and a "latched on to" Stonehenge. But this threesome, of course, wouldn't generate his decagon. Most kind, though! I'll drop in here another possible origin for Michell's Stonehenge-Glastonbury-Llantwit 3-some: according to scuttlebutt attached to Michell (and this from an excellent source, to me), John Michell came up with the idea whilst staring at a map .... and "coming down" from a trip ...

In THE LOST SCIENCE OF MEASURING THE EARTH, 2006 (aka the earlier THE MEASURE OF ALBION), by John Michell and Robin Heath, Michell mentions a "Gare Hill" twixt Stonehenge and Glastonbury (Rem Gor/Cor etc., above), another interesting spot, and makes mention of Iolo Morganwg's TRIADS OF BRITAIN (translated from the Welsh) but not specifically as his threesome source. He also - and quite mistakenly, it appears - writes (p 113): "Perpetual Choirs were a Celtic institution, from pagan into early Christian times." Nothing supports the "from pagan". And the "translated into"? Pretty much bingo here: http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Triads_of_Britain (1807):

"translated by William Probert ...1823" ...... except that where Probert put the Choir of Ambrosius at Ambresbury (probaby c/o the Humffreys/Pughe, 1821), Michell has "Choir of Ambrosius or Stonehenge" .... which isn't exactly likely to be identifying a choice between two alternatives but, rather, two different names for the same place? So, Caer Caradoc (Old Sarum, probably) acquires a Cor Ambrosius/Emrys, changes to Ambresbury and, finally, becomes Michell's Stonehenge.

The answer lies in Orpheus - harmonising the land with the Stars and the Seasons through music. The SERIOUSLY BC Orphic tradition is carried in Plato. Its Christian renaissance started in the East. Didn't reach here until C5th-C6th AD. There's no tradition in these Islands before that that I'm aware of (that can be provenanced) and Marie Trevelyan of Llantwit Major quite explicitly stated this in the context of Llaniltud Fawr/Llanilltyd ( LLANTWIT MAJOR: ITS HISTORY ... 1910 AD ). So, no Choirs, no Celts, no Druids - not in this context. When it did finally arrive, it consisted of shift-systems of monks keeping up a neverending chanting. The texts reviewed in Bromwich's TRIOEDD ... tell of 2400 monks working a shift system of 100 an hour "in prayer and service to God ceaselessly and without rest forever" in "a harmonious song, uninterrupted choir" - see the (C5-6th Eastern Monks) acoemeti, laus perennis, custom of Agaunum, louange perpetuelle, perpetual psalmody etc. The CodexCeltica site (link given - but quite a way down!) also touches on the theme in the context of Apollo worship - and a history of "24/7" (with the identification of Bangor Mor, Ireland) can be found at: http://www.transformmi.com/247PrayerHistory.cfm http://www.prayerhouse.co.za/pdf/BANGOR,_555_AD.pdf My thanks to "Mike", here.

At Bangor, Comgall instituted a rigid monastic rule of incessant prayer and fasting. Far from turning people away, this ascetic rule attracted thousands. When Comgall died in 602, the annals report that three thousand monks looked to him for guidance. Bangor Mor, named the great Bangor to distinguish it from its British contemporaries, became the greatest monastic school in Ulster as well as one of the three leading lights of Celtic Christianity. The others were Iona, the great missionary center founded by Colomba, and Bangor on the Dee, founded by Dinooth; the ancient Welsh Triads also confirm the Perpetual Harmonies at this great house."

Notice that the Ellis triad specially tells us of 'The three', not the four, seven or thirty-one, no, just the three. Iolo also carries just three. How strange, then to read of 'the three' at 1911 LoveToKnow, 'with bangor Illtud being a fourth':

And '420 Saints' - to the more common 2400? Whatever. John Michell goes 6 better ... and turns 'The three' into ten: the Circle of Perpetual Choirs (CPC).*

*Notes (10-12-07): Ani Williams refers to the idea of 'twelve different sanctuaries' sourced from John Michell's NEW LIGHT .... And that ties to Nicholas Mann, THE ISLE OF AVALON ... (above). Find the Ani Williams at www.aniwilliams.com/avalon_songlines.htm Another relevant 'find' here is www.lexiline.com/lexi234.htm The lexiline idea is evocative of the 12 round a central point - zodiac signs, months ... Ani Williams gives an interesting 7-12 connection (elsewhere on her site): a musical scale (of 7) to a musical octave (of 12). I explore the (comparatively recent!) invention of this 12-note scale elsewhere. Of note re Michell, his New Jerusalem plan and his CPC 12 (and carrying the '51' degree sunrise line ... but not the moonset that delivers 90 ... because this is 2008 and not 2006, perhaps?), a fascinating site: http://www.sunrisecelebration.com/news/article.php?docid=96 Also http://www.sunrisecelebration.com/news/article.php?docid=97The second site is 10 miles south of Glastonbury. See also http://philosopherforpeacetruthandreconciliatio.gaia.com/blog/2007/12/perpetual_choirs_of_britain

This last is another Michell "12" mention and one that gives the correct threesome of Glastonbury, Salisbury and Bangor on Dee (the Iscoed site). Se also re 12 the John Michell and Christine Rone TWELVE-TRIBE NATIONS ... - 12 monasteries enchanting the landscape.

Note: given the Michell 'Ten' CPC has little (of any substance) to do with any kind of Triads tradition that can be provenanced - and found, much beyond Probert, 1823 AD - then what, if anything, is going on? And, if something is going on, then who, exactly, dunnit? This given that the Ambresbury Choir site identification exists nowhere, it seems, before The Cambro-Britain, 1821, and Probert, 1823, whilst the Bangor Illtud (Llantwit) identification exists nowhere as a Triad Choir site before 1801. Smithett, 1922, mentions Druids and Stonehenge - do these inform Michell? The 'Bangor Vawr', cited in the John Jones version, incidentally, means Great Bangor - so you can see why/how some nominate the Menai Strait Cathedral and University College city, perhaps, as, indeed, you can understand the great Bangor Abbey, County Down? I don't get 'Iona' at all, though ...

The surprising thing, to me, is that the dimensions used by Michell in 1972 (and those he subsequently abandons in later forays*) actually evidence some kind of esoteric tradition of shape and number (albeit imperfectly/stylistically**) - and these properties are utterly in keeping in themes he advances elsewhere. So why does he chuck 'em when what he started with kinda actually seems to deliver relevant insight his later 'takes' don't? I give in - and he doesn't tell me! I did ask, once or twice ... and nicely ... honest. John Michell's 'insight', however, creates a problem: it has very little to do with any tradition of Perpetual Choirs, let alone ten of them (see below). And yet, if his original thinking is explored, things emerge that suggest something was going on. And in the frame are some of the early Fellows of the Royal Society. I note here John once, rather enigmatically - and possibly rather astutely! - remarked to me: "Layers of meaning ....". How true! I also note John's implicit pre-emininence (followed by others) as regards the centre of Stonehenge and similarly a significant Glastonbury vertex leading to a "by" for Llantwit (presumable because the 144 degree angle created this outcome); I fail to see any reason why any one site (or two) should be more inviolable than others (and will proceed accordingly).

Please note also Glastonbury: this alone seems (almost - noting North American Christian ?Evangelical "24/7" sites!) above suspicion, if you are happy - as I am - that Isle of Avallach/Avalon/Avillon/Glass Isle/Bangor Widrin denote this evocative Somerset town.

*To see the John Neal Appendix 6 list of the latest Michell sites - as in Heath/Michell's THE MEASURE OF ALBION - combined with a fledgling/developing investigation of these. The OS equivalents given are not from Appendix 6 but were posted by me on this site's defunct discussion forum. I have enquired (without response to date) as to why these OS sites have not been correctly attributed. Please note that, for my purposes, they're wrong anyway! http://www.ancient-wisdom.co.uk/decagon.htm

** And try sticking a sheet of A4 to a football - that's essentially what Michell's doing here. Messy! Decagons are flat, Planet Earth ain't. Then there are the relationships pi and phi. What values do we use?

John Michell posited a decagon of choir sites (the ten corners with significant centre) as based on the (supposed) Iolo Morganwg threesome of Stonehenge, Glastonbury and Llantwit Major. I dubbed this (appropriately) the Michell Decagon, but, firstly, it must have been very drafty and oft-times wet at Stonehenge doing all this perpetual chanting (let alone some- what Romano-military at its Old Sarum alternative) and, secondly, it is the threesome of Salisbury (Cathedral), a chapel west of Glastonbury and St. Illtyd at Llanilid that lends itself more readily to decagonal maths. They almost work* -and Llanilid has a very respectable (and Arthurian) past, granted Adrian Gilbert, Alan Wilson & Baram Blackett - THE HOLY KINGDOM . The 'Ilid' is said to derive from (Man of) Gilead, Joseph of Arimathea.

* About 41.1 and 41.4 miles at an angle of about 142.7 degrees (v. necessary 144 degrees) - but bear in mind plane geometry is only conventionally applicable to distances of about 30 miles or so. The Glastonbury site is a small chapel uncovered by excavation on Beckery Hill (Bride's Mound as in Brigit. Apparently, this once stood on a pre-Christian site, was dedicated firstly to Mary Magdalene and later, secondly, to St Bride, there possibly being a covent there, too. It's circa ST484383 OS and by an Old Way. I note a church just south
of Llanilid at 'St Mary's Hotel', Lat. 51.51(3-ish), by-the-by, whilst Old Sarum/Salisbury = Virgin of theAssumption. Credit for Beckery Hill (and thanks):

More below .... But, for now, back to Michell's Decagon: it can comprise two interlocking pentagrams, Lady and Goat. There would be 10 'Precious Gems' (phi points) and one of these will be on the Vale of Berkeley by the River Severn - a 'where-the-lady's-legs-meet' site. "Berkeley Hunt", note, is Cockney rhyming slang (for this exact geographical area and that exact biological spot* - and, also, hence, the derogatory 'berk' as in "e's a proper/right berk"). Its mirror, where the horns meet (Goat/Devil), would be at/by Shenstone, Kidderminster (as in goat/kid):

The green dots denote multiple phi points - "precious gems" to Kepler. (Where the chords cross is easier to see?). Two signify here - and both are on the (or, more accurately, a) model line of symmetry (the black line). It is exactly 15 degrees off OS 'up'.Place one atop t'other and you'll have ten gems on a 10-horned 'beast'. You need to use the geometry of circles, squares and hexagons to develop these shapes a la straight edge and compasses construction.

This is a symbol for St John the Evangelist, one of the two Sts John of Jerusalem - another is eagle. Noting that some believe 3, 11, 13 and 33 are significant in Freemasonry (Robert Howard for one), this happens (and see Robin Heath:
www.skyandlandscape.com/Article%20by%20Robin%20Heath.htm):

The 'chalice' is made of 4 of 5 corners of a 'Lady' pentagon/pentagram star, with the 5th point being where the line from Point St. John enters the circle.* Is this, perhaps, the real Holy Grail? Note a where-the-lady's-legs-meet site one of 5) where the two blue lines intersect (and the black one): it is a multiple phi point, shorter cut blue line to longer - and it's just geometry (of a sort), nothing else - except that 3113 (51 53)!

Between Queenhill (Cun Hill) and Puckrup are where the river cuts the axis - and there is a church at Queenhill dedicated to St. La(/u)wrence. Now he's the one who, traditionally, carried a non-Zimbabwe drum Holy Grail (no, it's the Valencia Chalice) - but this is a changed dedication from the earlier St. Nicholas, someone specifically identified with 'pure manna .... pure water'. A "pure river of water of life", of course, is in REVELATION, 22,1. But "clear as crystal", the River Severn?**

Note re. Queenhill: I read the church was called "St. Nicholas in the Middle Ages" - but it's on OS as such in 1884-6 and 1889.

Perhaps a William Camden's BRITANNIA entry for Gloucester, might have informed someone, once-upon-a-time, however? Sitting on the eastern side of the Severn, its name is said to derive from one Glywys or mean bright (noble/famous) place. But Camden wrote (allegedly):

Or did he? The quote is from the 1870 John Timbs, Abbeys, Castles and Ancient Halls of England and Wales.... The British Library - helpful as ever! - to me, 27-02-08 (and my thanks):

"Thank you for your reply. I have now checked the 1695, 1722 & 1789 editions of Camden but none of them appear to give the
information that John Timbs quotes. I have attached copies of the 1722 & 1789 editions; unfortunately I do not have access to a
digital copy of the 1695 edition.

I have also checked Timbs but he fails to give any reference other than the words according to Camden."

This follows an earlier send from BL of relevant BRITANNIA 1586, 1607 (1610) editions whilst I found the 1970 - no Caer Glosgii iis there either, in any of them. So where does Timbs get this 'Camden' from? Only Timbs c/o BRITANNIA ON-LINE and me c/o it carry Caer Glosgii iis. I've asked David Nash Ford - the on-line editor and also of the invaluable to me EARLY BRITISH KINGDOMS (ebk) site to help.But nothing so far ... But why would the highly-respected Timbs make it up? He's a marvellous editorial career coupled to publishing over 150 volumes. In 1834 he was elected Fellow of the Society of Antiquaries at circa 33 years of age. He frequently cites Camden - and on one occasion, in another book, he even criticises a Camden observation on the subject of Edward, the Black Prince (CURIOSITIES ...) for his lack of the provision of an authority!

Is the ref. above, then, a post 1798 BRITANNIA or some other Camden book entirely - like the Gloucester Visitation? Camden - after some thought by me! - seems to use Camden the way I use my own reference library. Did he have a library with (a) Camden as a part .... Um! Or is the 'Camden' the Earl of Camden FSA contemporary of Timbs, Sir John Jeffreys Pratt (whose father was FRS, 1742)?

Mr Marjoram - my thanks - of Rare-Books, BL, has been of remarkable assistance and not only trawled the BRITANNIAs and Timbs for me but also took a look at Camden's 1605 REMAINES . Nothing presented itself, unfortunately, but the point is made that this (1605) is but the first of many, many editions - as there are more BRITANNIAs twixt 1789 and the 1870 Timbs' publication. Again, BL, my thanks - geoffss, 28-02-08.

I note that all BRITANNIAs looked at carry the Timbs' 'Glaiuon' - 'bright', and therefore Gloucester is the same/similar Bristol (Brightstowe/Bristow). Both Bride places once, perhaps? There's also an idea that the Glou/Glow/Glovus/Gloui/Gloiu may be an ancestor of Vortigern, There was a post-Roman kingdom called Glovia. and I note too- as others have - the possibility of/in glanum, pure. Here is a thorough review sans Caer Glosgii iis http://marikavel.com/angleterre/gloucestershire/gloucester/accueil.htm

There was no "Bristol Channel" until maps of early C18th AD*. The term seems to develop from Waghenaer's Canael de Brostv, 1583, waters above Cornwall. It is de Ram, 1680, who identifies the current area as Channel of Bristol. The invention of "Bristol Channel" has the effect of limiting what becomes, officially, the River Severn's mouth to the Virgin Latitude spread of 51.4-51.5, 360/7. Note that the Severn derives its name from Sabrina - a drowned princess in Geoffrey of Monmouth, a "sad virgin innocent" in Spenser's FAERY QUEEN , and variously 'virgin goddess', 'virgin chaste' and 'virgin pure' in drafts of Milton's COMUS . I find one writer, meanwhile, refers to the 'dragon' that is the River Severn. And it sure looks like both wriggling snake (= dragon) and sperm. Doesn't it? And 515 (as in Lat.51.5) has a Gematrian value = to parthenos, virgin.

Consider the Ordnance Survey grid below and how it fits to the Snake-in-a-cup of St. John. In fact, it covers the Severn, including the river well before anyone ever invented 'Bristol Channel. That led to the very similar 360/7 Virgin Lat/OS SS7/ ST7 (marked near Cardiff and Bath)- and pretty much defining the Severn Mouth. Think, also, of the snake writhing out of paradise (Wales!?):

You have to rotate it clockwise to match the to phi chalice. Note, too, that this ST JOHN is part of the a bigger one - the 6 major OS 'boxes', as shown by the first letter ('S' here) are also HJ/NO/ST.

*The actual term 'Bristol Channel' first appears in the 1701 AD maps by Robert Morden and Herman Moll map, this latter cartographer being very close to William Stukeley, client of the 2nd Duke of Montagu and mapper of Roman Roads (noting a Grenville Collins 1693 reference to "The Severn or Channell of BRISTOL" where either term represents to water to at least Lundy - which is where Moll sites his 1701 Bristol Channel, too). I have explored this in some detal since posting this page: 1701 marks the first appearance of 'Bristol Channel' bur areas like Channell of Bristol and Mouth of the Severn/Severn Estuary exist on maps of C17th Ad provenance. The convention now (UKHO) is to have Channel meet Estuary/Mouth at a line from Lavernock Point (another St. Lawrence Church site) to Sand Point, roughly Lats 54-53.9. That's about 2 miles south of Lat. 360/7. For a detailed study (and some peculiar Ordnance Survey outcomes) go to:http://docs.google.com/Doc?id=dhsvjc9j_0gd5gzz

Notice that mirror 3113 - and Freemasonry is said to love 3, 13 and 33*! - is 51 53 in Latitude terms. All these 5s, 3s and 1s! The Sq Rt 3 is 153 : 265-ish, 51 X 3 = 153 and 53 X 5 = .... 265. North-to-south, that the Michell CPC 'lives' twixt Lats. 51 and 53. And there's one other thing : that circle (given stylised maths) is bigger than a decagon it could describe by 6.66 miles. So the model could be said to be "dressed with (wearing) the Sun" (see St. John's 'Woman' of REVELATION, 12, 1 - 12, 3).**

Author's note (10-06-08): over on ' "Tarot II" http://www.geoffss.plus.com/tarotII.htm there's a developing area whose origin lies in Dave Brandon's work on rainbow angles, this now developed (and still developing!) c/o Mick Saunders. One 'outcome' is the progression 6, 15, 24, 33, 42, 51, 60, 69, 78, 87, 96 ...123 ... 222. The formula is 6 + (9 X n). Look at all those mirrors - 24 and 42, for instance. And, c/o Mick, 6 - (9 X n): -3, -12, -21. I mention it here because numbers out of the sequence appear also as angles when a decagon is tilted at 3 degrees off its axes - 33, 15 and 51 for instance - as applies in the model I present here. Note also the curiosity 12, 1 -12, 3 REVELATION and 12, 21 and 123.

*Note on the Ordnance Survey, ex Board of Ordnance: it is commonly abbreviated to OS. O is letter 15 and S letter 18 = ... 33. 9 X 33, 297, I note, yields the 'mirror': 3 X 33 X 3. 7 gets on with the 3, 11 and 33 possibilities: together they generate Root 2-alikes. Sq. Rt.2 is 1.414213562 ... whilst 140/99 (7 X 20)/(3 X 11 X 3) = 1.41414.... (thanks, PMac!). There's also the similar! 99/70 (3 X 11 X 3)/(7 X 10) = 1.4142857 ... The two integer based values mean to 1.41421356 ... correct to 8 decimal figures. Sq. Rt 2 is called the "Constant of Pythagoras" by some. Note: we have a 3113, of sorts, featured at Point St. John, above. We also have a Severn, of sorts ... a 10-cornered decagon ... nines ... I also note my combined Sq rt 2 integer-alike can be expressed by primes 1153 X 17 over 2sq X 3sq X 5 X 7 X 11. ** A curiosity at Lat 53 is the Lat. value: 69.15, noting the relationship 6, 9, 15 is explored elsewhere .

**Visit http://www.geoffss.plus.com/tarotII.htm Tarot II to see 'Isis'- a lady twixt two pillars (rather like Samson, I note, and Tarot 'The World' and the Long Man of Wilmington) - created on a bed of circles (the Seed and Flower of Life), based on the maths of the solar hexagram, the Lady pentagram and phi, and utterly consistent with the Kabbalistic Tree of Life whilst evidencing the "Fruit", the regular polygons and 'hedrons'. It's just geometry - of a sort - basically(I note here - 5s, 3s and 1s* - that 355/113 is Pi correct to 6 decimal places whilst 553 + 113 = 666. I also note REV. 13, 18: Here is wisdom ... 666. 13 X 18 = 234, + mirror 432 = .... Also, if a right-angled triangle carries 23.5 degrees, t'other must be ...?). However .... caution! There is an MS surviving (the oldest I read) that gives 616 (it seems) and not the now ubiquitous666. *The Euclid 47 ("John") 3-4-5 triangle is angled 53.1 and 36.9 correct to one decimal figure.

There is one particular part of REVELATION -12, 15 - "And the serpent cast out of his mouth water as a flood ...". Let's go where we are sent with this one: we need a " great red dragon" - 12, 3 - which is Wales in virtually anyone's currency, these days, isn't it, and we need a flood from its mouth - and Severn Bore springs to mind?*

* In the MABINOGIAN, LLUDD AND LLEFELYS , it is clear that the term 'red dragon' identifies the areas now Wales AND England. The 'white dragon' signals invaders, presumably firstly Lludd's imminent Roman threat and, later, Vortigern's Saxons. The tale is remarkable in that Lludd orders his kingdom measured and no-one asks how = they knew how? They just got on with it, anway, and came up with Carfax, Oxford, as the centre. The 2 warring dragons are buried there - but then dug up and taken to Dinas Emrys, Snowdonia.

(I note also that the CPC 'Llantwit' vertex, Glamorgan, in on Lat. 51.4415 - a mirror of sorts - click on 153 - Mirrors. And under 0.9 of a mile off 360/7 Lat - the 'Virgin'.* It might interest you to learb that Roslin Chapel sits on Lat. 55.855, another 'mirror') The CPC axis sits on Lat. 51.115, another mirror. Of course, you'd need a decimal system for these to be design-deliberate ... allied to quite remarkable (and/or recent?) ability to obtain Lat. values with some quite remarkable precision, you think? Unless the whole thing just looks too 'recent' in origin/inspiration?

Stephen Dail, of the excellent Celestial Chessworks, drew my attention to the gematria of the phrase "To Agion Oblation", Holy Oblation, and its possible relevance to my CPC study - and my thanks!

The phrase 'holy oblation' comes from Ezekiel, notably chapter 48, 'DIVISION OF THE LAND' (with reference to the portions of the 12 tribes, the Lord, the priests, the prince and the workers (common land). There is reference to the 4 sides and 12 gates of the square (groundplan) city and to a sanctuary. 'Oblation' has alternative translation: offering (such as the Eucharist bread and wine) and allotment/portion.It comes from 'oblate', dedicated. There is a different word (of same spelling) that means ' flattened at opposite .... poles' (CHAMBERS ), as in Planet Earth. This second 'oblate' possesses no 'oblation' as a noun. Or didn't until recently, that I know of ...

A note re 24888 - from correspondence with Mr Dail: Stephen noted 1037 X 24 = 24888; I found 1037 X 5 = 5185, a number evocative of Pi - and one close to the 22/7 Lat. my model picks out as central to an octagon of related proportion to the CPC. 51.85 represents the Pi-alike 51 51 (1515/Isis backwards) and is the precise Latitude at the spot where the River Severn flows through my CPC model's axis. But there's more:

The CPC model centre is exactly Lat 52.025, a mirror. The southernmost model point is Lat. 51.113. Halfway between them is Lat. 51.5675. If we add and mean the relevant Bowditch Table 7 Lat values (each X 360) we get 24887.999954 miles. So to under 3 inches (calculated this way*) we have To Agion Oblation exactly halfway on our model twixt middle and bottom - at ST761856, and just by Hopton Court.

*I must note that the equivalent Bowditch value is 24887.9318 miles ... Bowditch gives 51.58 as the actual 24888 (Lat degree X 360).

Note Re Hopton: acquired Paston family reign Ed VI and they held it 'til C19th (though I also read 1565-1757). Site of notable Catholic library C18th AD when the house was occupied by "a dissident branch of the Paston's". Two Pastons were FRS: Ist Earl of Yarmouth (Original, 1663) and his son (1722, proposed William Stukeley). The House is at ST766849. The second Earl had connections to the Boyles and Montagus.

So ... 24888, mean of my centre and bottom, To Agion Oblation. By a Catholic hotbed - like my precious gem at Coughton, another near Harvington and a vertex at Old Stratford (Potterspury). And 2 FRS connected (to boot) via the Paston family's ownership of Hopton.

Find relevant John Michell/Robin Heath (p. 10-20 ish) at

http://books.google.com/books?id=efc_gR1QM-oC&pg=PA20&lpg=
PA20&dq=john+michell+earth+mean+circumference&source=web&ots
=yRtyOOqOWu&sig=K2K9IdHGR3iZ6PKwp1U1z0Ij_us&hl=en&sa=<br>X&oi=book_result&resnum=2&ct=result#PPA12,M1

CAVEAT: Earth Mean Circumference and Earth Meridian Circumference are not the same!
The data therein re Earth meridian/polar radius and a meridian circumference of 24883.2 and obtaining value for the relevant Latitude degree of 69.12 miles match Bowditch Table 7 data for circa Lat. 50.5. If that is indeed the origin then I would have real reservations about its fitness for purpose in this Earth Mean Circumference context since the value 24883.2/360 = 69.12, as above, but this 69.12 is a Lat. value and NOT an emc one (note, geoffss, 04-09-08) - and Michell was positing a value for pole-to-pole circumference now given as 24859 miles.

To see what I mean click on http://starpathdemos.com/bowditch/table7.htm

Enter 50.5 and look at the outcome in Length ... Lat. ... Statute Miles. Multiply the first 4 digits therein by 360 et voila! I think I also worked out that a Great Circle that meaned the Earth's shape would go close to 47 degrees N to the same S. I think .................

MOVING ON:

Perpetual Choirs appear in Dr. Rachel Bromwich's TRIOEDD YNYS PRYDEIN, Triad 90 (Vaughan abbrev. Jones acc. Bromwich - but she gives various versions, as detailed above):

"Tri Dyfai Gyfangan Ynys Prydein un oedd yn Ynys Afallach/yr ail Nyghaer
Garadawc/a'r trydydd ym Mangor."

Compare with Iolo, Y MYVYRIAN ARCHAIOLOGY (Series 3 of Book 2, P 70), Triad 84, sourced (apparently ...by Iolo) from a volume of the Rev. Richards of Llanegwad:

"Tair prif Gyfangor ynys Prydain: Bangor Illtud Farchawg yng Nghaer
Worgorn/Cor Emrys yng Nghaer Caradawg/a Bangor Widrin yn ynys
Afallen."

So Bromwich, drawing on material cited above, gets an Isle of Avallach (Avalon/Glastonbury), a Caer Caradoc (of which there are a plentitude - though she, like me, notes Old Sarum here) and 'Bangor' (which she identifies- or notes an identification - with Bangor Iscoed, Wrexham). Any place with a church was a 'bangor', possibly - as in 'holy place'?* Iolo, on the other hand, generates, what appears to be Llantwit Major (Llanilltud Fawr) associated with somewhere called 'CaerWorgorn' (possibly Caer Morgan**, the king Glamorgan derives its name from - Morgannwg - much as Iolo does - another Morgannwg), a Choir (of Merlin or Ambrosius - 'Emrys') at a Caer Caradoc (which there is reason to believe Iolo identified with Old Sarum but which is now commonly (c/o John Michell) identified with Stonehenge ... or Amesbury ... but Andrew Collins now - 'with others', he says in an email to me - identifies Avebury as this site), and what appears to be Glastonbury (Ynys Witrin/Glass Isle). Glastonbury*** seems common to both, but Llantwit replaces Bangor Iscoed and Stonehenge subsequently usurps Old Sarum?. And we've seen above the CPC Michell (supposedly) inspired from these (supposed) Iolo three!

*Notes: I find Bangor: "a monastery, religious settlement, academy, college (within a wattle fence)"/spelt Bancor in Bede, 772 AD/wattled fence itself and-or a retaining rod in one/white choir/high choir/circular hut/place of the choir. Certainly, we find "Abbey" evidenced at various specific (and pertinent) Bangor sites. Now, throw in the fascinating corban, sacrifice/offering to god (and crow/raven, of course) as well as coeur/heartcore (and Kore) and gore/blood ... but the on-line dictionary (GERIADUR) I consulted was quite specific about cor (with an accent - ?long vowel?) - choir. Gor, it tells me (same mark) means pus.

** A Caer Morgan site is about 1500 metres northwest of Llantwit - my thanks to Jake Sales for emailing me this, 02-08-11. Jake tells me a "Caer Morgan" identification existed in the 1870s but after that it was labelled (wrongly, he writes) a Roman villa, because of all the marble there.http://mail. OS grid ref.: SS960699:

There are references to Cor Tewdws at Caer Worgorn - (the Vatican) "Nenniu"s, HISTRIA BRITTANUM. for instance:

Note here, though that the ruined chapel circa ST484383 is on or by 'Beckery' ST488386 - this is the chapel mentioned above in the Llanilid-Glastonbury-Old Sarum scenario.

MOVING ON ...

I need to introduce some new material: THE ANCIENT LAWS OF CAMBRIA : CONTAINING THE INSTITUTIONAL TRIADS OF DYVNAL MOELMUD, William Probert, printed 1823 (noting points re THE CAMBRO-BRITAIN, 1821/2, above), and drawing on THE ARCHAIOLOGY OF WALES (Iolo, 1807). There's obviously been a problem with suspected fraud because Probert makes repeated reference to the demonstrable antiquity of the material and its sources (whilst commenting on some adulteration!). Where not Iolo-invented, the source material appears to be an ancient MSS 'of Edward Mansel ... by ... Thomas ab Ivan ... 1685'. Mention is made of the possession of an MS by the Rev. T Walters, 180, with mention of it being that of Thomas Jones, 1601, drawing on Caradog of Nant Garvan and Jeuan Brechan. Probert claims origin for some of the material back to circa 400 BC - not the bits about William (the Comqueror) or the Grail Knights, I'll hazard, though. As regards content, Probert's Triad 84 is not identical to Iolo, Iolo carrying Caradoc to Probert's Ambresbury. Also, there's no Joseph of Arimathea, but lots of Bran the Blessed, father of Caradoc and son of Llyr, together with mention of (Grail family) St Cyllin. Llandaff is given archbishopric primacy, Illtud gets to guard the 'Greal' along with, say, Peredur. Basically, make of it and its "sources" what you will:

So, one problem lies in the possible admixture/conflation of various Choir/Caer/Cor/Gor possibilities*. Stonehenge, for instance, can be 'dancing stones' - Choir Gaur - so you have Gor alikes at Glastonbury (Bangor Widrin), Llantwit (Bangor Illtud), Stonehenge (Cor Emrys/Choir Gaur), and, as Michell notes, Goring, a fourth CPC site.- 'Meeting Place of Choirs'/ 'choir-place' (gor-ting) this subsequently becomes, in Michell** (the first in THE MEASURE OF ALBION and the second on the Jonathan Cainer website http://www.cainer.com/michell/oct1702.html). And Goring is another site evocative of a decagon and a CPC of ten (perpetual) 'choirs'. Notice, though, how Stonehenge's dance (Stonehenge/Chorea Gigantum) becomes song (as in chorus/choir - and choir derives from the Greek 'song and dance' dramatic chorus). See here, for example, http://codexceltica.blogspot.com (the site is an utter gem generally but particularly apposite here and with reference to 'Perpetual Choir').

* gor is chor in Irish, noting chorus/chorea **So what would John have made of Goring-by-Sea?

This is a detail from an old (late C19th AD OS) map of Goring. The River Thames is just to the left and the ancient Icknield Way to the right. The detail reads 'The Temple'. In THE MEASURE OF ALBION, John Michell mentions visiting Goring (with Robin Heath). He applies the word 'sanctuary' - and notes a property called 'The Temple' ("Appropriately", I think he writes).. Two letters to me from an officer of the Goring and Streatley Local History Association - and my thanks! - deny any tradition of any "sanctuary", as such, at Goring, but note a mediaeval building thought to have once on this Temple site, a hostelry! A sanctuary, of sorts, arguably?

Had John and/or Robin consulted a late-ish C19th AD OS map, say 1877 or 1883, (Berkshire), then they would have found 'The Temple', as above. It was actually a substantial waterfront house (and estate), dating from Mid-Victorian times - and can be seen pictorally c/o using English Heritage 'Viewfinder'/a search for 'The Temple' + Goring + 'Henry Taunt',1899, etc.). John Michell and Robin Heath found the private drive that leads to a newer The Temple - at SU601817 to the 1930-demolished building sited SU601816. The former is the some-time residence and recording studio of Pete Townsend of The Who fame, I believe.

The Mid-Victorian the Temple was one of a number of River Thames property developments coming in the wake of the building of the Great Western railway line through Goring, from Paddington, and on towards North Wales by way of Princes Risborough. The impact on this on the villages along that part of the Thames - and our 'hostelry' are current lines of enquiry (geoffss, 23-11-07). There's also a 'The Temple' boathouse still in existence, and the Temple Cottages on Elvenden Road (thanks, Bernard!), once the estate's tied cottages. The earliest I can date the house to, currently, is a mortgage dated 1873 and including the right to 'present' to the Goring church (advowson) and lands. The was the (refusable) right to nominate to a church benfice. Gardiners - it was Lawrence Weave who mortgaged The Temple + lands + advowson in 1873 for 10000 - are listed as of some substance in Goring in the C19th AD. A Samuel W. Gardiner is associated with a property called Coombe Lodge, Goring, 1852. I found a 1793 (pre-railway) painting that shows a substantial building is the right kind of area - assuming we are looking north. And we are, and there it is - a mill! Nothing but trees and fields where the Temples 1 and 2 were later to stand, just by it (thanks, again, Bernard). The nunnery, as indicated, was in the nearby town - and some distance away.

Note: c/o Bernard, Goring Gap Walks (and my thanks). It's Cleeve Mill in the picture, with 'The Temple' site to the left, a clump of tree and a field. Not even a hostelry! Oh, well ... There Is a PH comes up on Multimap (but not OS). I think it's the Cleeve Reach Boathouse, circa SU601823. That's accessible via Spring Farm. Is there, I wonder, any special
property in the spring(s)?

The advowson above applies to the Goring St. Thomas Church (that used to be St. Mary and part of what seems to have been a small and somewhat unruly nunnery). There's also the nearby Elvedon Priory ... and legends of a tunnel!

Returning to 'gor', generally, what a possible complication is that Glastonbury can be identified with the kingdom of Gorre as can Llantwit with the capital of Gorfynedd (Gorwenydd in the Triads assoc. sheep of Caradoc, Iolo 85), Glywysing. And let us not forget the Cor of (Llanilid - Silurian Capital?) Ilid assoc.with St Paul coming here or that some identify Ilid with St. Peter. In fact, in some 'legend', most of the (British Israel) New Testament heads this way, apparently!

If I search the internet for Ambresbury together with Triads, I find Iolo's Series 3 appears to give (at 84 - or, in one case, 86) a Perpetual Choir site " the Choir of Ambrosius at (or in) Ambresbury'. If you look at my Iolo Welsh version (courtesy of the University of Wales - thankyou) above you'll see Cor Emrys at Caer Caradoc. There's not an 'Ambresbury' in sight but there is in The Cambro-Britain triad 85 notes of 1821 and Probert in 1823. Did Probert source it from Iolo? Certainly not from Iolo's Series 3, Triad 84, above -and the other version, series 1, triad 80, is from Robert Vaughan: Caer Caradoc. No. Later Iolo-related material specifies Old Sarum. It was Geoffrey of Monmouth and William of Stukeley FRS, possibly, or The Cambro-Britain triad notes, of course, that led to ?Pughe's? annotation in The Cambro-Britain and/or Probert making Iolo's Caer Caradoc into Ambresbury? And this, in turn, informed Smithett, perhaps.

I can see that Cor Emrys can be Choir of Ambrosius but Emrys was also Merlin*... and Stonehenge is known as Merlin's Precinct (and, in legend, he built the place). Nennius writes of an Ambrosius as a counsellor to Vortigern (in fact I saw 'elder' or 'younger' implying more than one). Geoffrey of Monmouth conflated him with Myrddin (as in Caermarthen). But he called the combo Merlinus. Why? The French for excrement, apparently.

And, next, just how does Caer Caradoc translate as Ambresbury? I mean how? I suppose you could turn to the MABINOGIAN (DREAM OF RHONABWY) and/or Geoffrey of Monmouth: Saxon treachery at Amesbury Abbey/ Mons Ambrius. Stonehenge - a spurious legend is that the stones were erected in memorium? It's just by it - and the bodies of Vortigern's nobles treacherously slain are supposed to be buried there at 'the monastery founded by Abbot Ambrus (Ambrose and ?sic Ambrius - my fault in transcribing perhaps?) not far from Kaercaradoc that is now called Salisbury' (G of M, as in Richard Barber's MYTHS AND LEGENDS OF THE BRITISH ISLES, P.58) even if Stone- henge predates the event a tad. Elsewhere I find the note: ' but Ambresbury fell in the C6th' (Nesbit - "British-Israel" stuff, the Biblical 'Lost Tribes' ending up hereabouts, it seems). Whilst it may be inviting, moreover, to identify this Ambresbury with Amesbury, at least one current expert I've consulted rubbishes the idea where another supports it. I've touched on the candidacies of Old Sarum and Avebury above - but I've expanded the problems research encounters here as a warning! Caveat Emptor! You'll notice, for instance, 'monastery, - but the Amesbury Abbey legend has Guinevere retiring to was a ... nunnery. And that wasn't built until the end of the C10th AD (unless there was a previous foundation/'cloister' - or even more than one, perhaps). Fabio P. Barbieri uses the word 'if' in this context, that of the times of Ambrosius (Aurelianus),uncle of (legendary) Arthur. It is noteworthy that Guinevere's nunnery was Black Benedictine, as was the Glastonbury Abbey and the claimed Nash Manor Monastery.

Note: I had a quick look at the on-line Iolo Series 3 Triads (link follows) and found trivial differences - of Triad order rather than content - to The Cambro-Britain triad 85 notes and Probert version. Intriguingly, he comments, as a final note: 'Besides the text ... there are two other copies printed in the Archaiology, differing ... in things of minor importance' (pp 413-414)*. Of these, Series 1 and 3 carry Perpetual Choir Triads - variously at 80 and 84 (above). The Iolo on-line (Series 3 version) carries 'Choir of Ambrosius in Ambresbury' (but it would do - it's the Probert translation and not exactly the Iolo original - and this is what sourced I think John Michell, not Iolo. http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Triads_of_Britain

*Probert: A 'minor difference' !!!!!????, if such it be, exists twixt triad 80 Series 1 (p. 17 - and thanks to NLW for the copy) and triad 90 Series 3, both Myvy.: Mangor becomes Bangor Illtud at Caer Worgorn, and Nghaer (Caer) Garadawc becomes Cor Emrys in/at Caer Caradawg. They don't look that similar to me ... Methinks I've made this point somewhere else ...

The top comment in Wiki (ref above) draws its version of Iolo from Probert but borrows the note: 'These triads, insofar as they are not fabricates of Iolo ... are the works of Welsh Antiquarians C16th-C18th.

BRITANNIC RESEARCHES ...., Book 3, p. 289, by Beale Poste, 1853 touches on this in a commentary on TRIADS by "Mr. Williams", 1840. Iolo's son - for that is who I think it is, carrying his father's work on, has Triads 2 and 3 referring to informative material: 'Moel Evwr'. Now Poste equates this with (Old) Sarum and dismisses Abury, Stonehenge and Ambresbury ...

I can't help but think that just the one Geoffrey of Monmouth sentence - concerning the monastery founded by ?Abbot?* Ambrius ... Kaercaradoc- has been distorted into the Cor Ambrosius at/in Ambresbury, the Mons Ambrius AND the Caer Caradoc versions of the Triad site. I find an alternative to Richard Barber (above as "Cloister of Ambrius" (no Abbot) ... "not far from Kaercaradduc, which is now called Salisbury" with the rider that elsewhere Geoffrey of Monmouth says this was a monastery of 300 brethren *founded by Ambrius ... and situated on Mount (Mons) Ambrius - and noting Amesbury/ Ambresbyrig is actually in a river valley. The authoress goes for Stonehenge itself (Cloister = covered arcade/arches=henge kind of thinking) but I note the actual Amesbury Abbey site twixt Stonehenge and Amesbury. The ref. is http://www.cassiopaea.com/cassiopaea/adventures240.htm

David Nash Ford's excellent EARLY BRITISH KINGDOMS website further complicates, identifying the 'cloister of Ambrius' on 'Mount Ambrius' "for it was Ambrius, so they say, who founded the monastery years before", identifying the monastic founder as the father of the cloister founder, Ambrosius Aurelianus, uncle of legendary Arthur:
http://www.earlybritishkingdoms.com/articles/ambros03.html Find David also at www.britannia.com/history/ebk/

On this Nash Ford identification, Robert Vermaat (see below/Vortigern Studies) writes (30-10-07):

"Hmm, I had to read back what David says about that.. Yes, we disagree there. David has a tendency to accept every duplication as historical (such as where Vortigern's son Catigern is confused later with St. Kentigern, he adds the latter to Vortigern's offspring), and he he accepts Ambrius as a real person. Now I', personally convinced that Geoffrey of Monmouth duplicated Amesbury by confusing the Latinised name of Ambresbyrig (Ambrius Mons), confusing the English 'burg' (fort) with 'byrg' (hill). He thus created two places, and retained the etymologous founder Ambrius for the one, and Ambrosius for the other. David re-interpreted the superfluous Ambrius with the 'father' of Ambrosius Aurelianus, whom we meet fighting a Vitalinus near Wallop (not far from Amesbury) in 437."

More news on this: THE BEAUTIES OF WILTSHIRE ... by John Britton, 3 Vols. 1801-1825. To precis. he writes, P.128, of a triade on 'The three treacherous assemblies', one being 'on the mountain of Caradoc', which he then has as near 'the present Ambresbury' ( I found other mention elsewhere of Ambresbury - 'Ambresbury Plain' - dated early C19th AD to confirm the use of 'Ambresbury' as a place/area). Elsewhere Britton tells of "Vespasian's Camp" as a name {for Mount Ambri} there). He cross-refs this to Triad 84 (Iolo) to back up the Caer Caradoc-Ambresbury idea. And, elsewhere again, he writes of one Walter of Oxford (d. circa 1151) who wrote in Welsh of 300 monks on Ambri Mount (as above) - sourced from Vol ii, p.77 of Iolo. But it appears Geoffrey of Monmouth also cited Walter - albeit the common belief is he was of Geoffrey's invention as a source. And of Iolo's? Under a search for Walter I read 'supposed historian'! Even stranger, I looked up Probert's Iolo treacherous assemblies and it says (Triad 20) 'upon Salisbury Plain' - not 'on the mountain of Caradoc' (which is Iolo's Triad 20!) - what the hell's going on? Here's the ref.:

The Bromwich TRIOEDD YNYS PRYDEIN has Triad 51 as the closest to Iolo 20, with no Saxon treachery at anywhere mentioned.

Note: Britton - 'the choir of Ambrosius in Caer Caradoc' (not Ambresbury), p. 128. Ambri Mount - p 124 - with Ambrosius going to Salisbury to see the graves. See also G of M p. 409 and Probert p. 383 on. Saxon treachery 'on the mountain of Caer Caradoc' (G of M). My Iolo carries: Fynydd (Mount ?of) Caer Caradawc', not Ambresbury. Was it William Stukeley caused (or more likely inspired) this problem in his 1740 AD STONEHENGE ...., Chapter X1, pp. 47-49? http://www.sacred-texts.com/neu/eng/str/str13.htm

Noting that there have been confusions twixt Ambrosius (some) and Ambrius (others and aka Ambrus/Ambri), Stukeley reasons that there must have been the Ambers or Main Ambres, Amesbury being Little Ambres ... and so Stonehenge becomes (magically, one might say) Ambresbury. 'Main' gets to cover Mons/Mount ...

I have been very fortunate in the help freely given me over the years by various learned folk, and, not least, Robert Vermaat of VORTIGERN STUDIES - and my thanks. Here's Robert to me (email, 29-10-07) on this subject:

... of course there were many lists going around that contained speculation of where all the cities were that were mentioned in the Historia Brittonum. Many scholars have attempted to name every 'caer', and maybe the identified towns are based on such scholarship?

Cor Emrys might become Caer Caradoc if someone before that had established a claim that the two were identical. Cor Ambrosius would then become Amesbury, which goes back on Geoffrey of Monmouth, who did not see that his Ambrius Mons and Amesbury were in fact identical. He confused Ambresbyrig (the fortress of Ambrosius) with Ambrius Mons (the hill of Ambr(os)ius). This causes no wonder, for the Anglo-Saxon byrig can mean both 'fortress' (burgh) and 'hill' (byrg). Both names can be about one and the same place: Amesbury and the surrounding area.

The identification of the plains of Amesbury (Stonehenge is meant) and of Salisbury also predates Stukeley. I've argued here http://www.vortigernstudies.org.uk/artcit/caerstone.htm that already Geoffrey linked Vortigern to Stonehenge, but the thirteenth-century
English poem 'Of Arthour and of Merlin' went one step further and located the tower of Vortigern right in the middle of Stonehenge, but naming that place "Vpon ye pleyn of Salesbury". Maybe that was the time when both plains were intermingled, as today 'Salisbury Plain' is much larger and encompassing the Amesbury region.

I'm glad my site was that helpful!

Cheers,

http://www.vortigernstudies.org.uk/

Once again, thanks, Robert - and everyone else who has helped me with my (endless) queries and quibbles! Notes here: Vortigern and Dinas Emrys appear in Geoffrey of Monmouth (from Nennius). The usurper Vortigern tries to build a tower on Dinas Emrys, commonly said to be in Snowdonia. Merlin uncovers two warring dragons there, one red (Brits) and one white (Saecsens). These had previously been at Carfax, Oxford (LLUDD AND LLEFELYS). Vortigern gets done in by the rightful heir, Ambrosius Aurelianus and his brother Uther, as in Pendragon, eventually, and is cursed to hell and damnation in the triads (and Gildas) for letting in the Saxons ... Now Dinas Emrys is named after this Ambrosius (Michael Senior, MYTHS OF BRITAIN, P.67-70). Basically, the Dinas Emrys tower is transplanted to Stonehenge in the C13th AD (as detailed above). Note that the Merlin character is often styled Emrys, too and he, too, is connected to both locations, the Snowdonia Dinas Emrys and Stonehenge.

Stronghold places seem the key here. We have Caer Caradocs named after that eponymous hero, whilst there are numerous Caer Guorthegirn's (Vortigern) named after that eponymous anti-hero, with Emrys/Ambrosius being the next king in line. I dimly remember Old Sarum/Salisbury was a Caer Guorthegirn (and William of Worcester says so) and Vespasian's Camp (by Amesbury and Stonehenge) could be another such stronghold, perhaps? Yep! I have a Vermaat ref. to Caer Guorthegirn 'near Amesbury' (your ezboard forum, Robert!) whilst there is also some thinking I've seen that the Ambrosius Aurelianus family estates were in the Amesbury area - hence the name ...

To try to pull this altogether, then: I think the current state-of-play is that the strongest probability is that Iolo invented Llanilltyd, Glastonbury and Emrys (Ambrosius/Merlin) at Caer Caradoc whilst William Probert (possibly because of Stukeley and/or the Iolo Triad 20 'Mount') decided Caer Caradoc must be Ambresbury and just replaced the one with the other. If that IS the case, then The Cambro-Britain notes and/or Probert are the origin the Stonehenge, Glastonbury, Llanilltyd threesome, and it provenances back no earlier than 1823 AD! I find the 1815 Ellis notes, FABLIAUX, carries mention Saxon treachery on 'the plain of Ambresbury in Wiltshire', p. 200. This is not a triad reference. Does he mean Salisbury plain (c/o Stukeley) or what? It just gets worserer and worserer ... It seems to be the case (and possibly post-Stukeley) that Ambresbury and Salisbury are sometimes interchangeable terms for 'that part of the world'.* For example, Iolo's Triad 20 carries 'Fynydd (Mountain ?of) Caer Caradawc' for the (treacherous) meeting with the Saxons but Probert's Triad 20 translation is 'upon Salisbury Plain' (as against his Choir Ambrosius in Ambresbury for Caer Caradawg elsewhere - Triad 84).

The OS ref. for Stonehenge is SU122422. At SU146416 is a 'Fort' (Vespasian's Camp/Mons Ambrius etc.) and, just by it, Amesbury Abbey, SU151417. You can interrogate the site on-line via get-a-map OS or www.multimap.com ... or Google Earth. David Nash Ford sites the Ambrius site here, Amesbury, it appears.

There is a slight quibble, though: the Perpetual Choirs given there are William Probert's, from 1823 AD.

Note: from NLW (and my thanks, 09-11-07): source for Triad 80 of Myv., Series 1, Page 17, Book 2, is Robert Vaughan of Hengwrt. (1591-1666), as with the 1870 second edition:

Just Glastonbury, Caer Caradoc and Bangor. No Iscoed or Maelawr ... or Ambresbury!!!

I also found the 'Valley of Angels' in the context of yet another Perpetual Choir threesome: Bangor Iscoed, Iona and Bangor Mor (taken to be the Abbey in County Down, Ireland, and sited in said valley). This North American Christian - and, seemingly, Evangelical /(24/7) - threesome is unique in that it has no Glastonbury but claims to be provenanced in the Welsh Triads: http://www.transformmi.com/247PrayerHistory.cfm

*One step forward .... I give you Iolo Aneirin Williams (Iolo's great-great grandson), 1890-1962, donator of the MS 71 English translation by Edward Williams (Iolo) of the Series 3 Triads - in his own hand, it seems. NLW told me about this. Could Ambresbury 'live' here? And the answer - and my grateful thanks to the Newtown Library here (+ the Radnorshire Society and its help, plus, yet again, the NLW for 'the lead'): from Rachel Bromwich, The Transactions of the Honourable Society of Cymmrodorion Part 1, 1969, p. 137:

I have no reference for the two asterisks I'm afraid - there's no note on the relevant page. The use of 'bangor wydrin' echoes the Thos. Wiliems/Moses Williams Widrin/Wydryn copy above, I note, but notice that, whilst changing Bangor Iscoed to Llantwit Major (near where he lived, Iolo, is acknowledging Old Sarum. There is absolutely NO mention of Stonehenge whatsoever. So, Stonehenge likeliest results from The Cambro-Britain notes, 1821/2, and/or William Probert, 1823, (perhaps influenced by Geoffrey of Monmouth and William Stukeley FRS). There's also Rev. Smithett, perhaps, and the subsequent interpretation of some/all of this by Michell, 1972, et al. Michell's CPC idea cannot be provenanced before 1823 AD.* And yet so much New Age Earth Mysteries drivel has sprung from it! It is, of course, utterly possible Michell derived the same conclusion as to this site utterly independently of Probert, nonetheless: namely ; Caer Caradoc?, muses JM. Must be Stonehenge ... And, c/o Iolo, Wood and Probert, a choir ...

A note, however, on how (heavily stylised) sky data at Stonehenge - sun, moon and pole star, noting that nowadays Polaris was Thuban in Draco around the time of the construction of Stonehenge - can "inform" the CPC model as follows: Note also that the Llantwit-Croft line was the Midsummer sun "path" to John Michell if, as (I believe, he sourced the note under "Llantwit Major" at www.ancient-wisdom.co.uk/decagon.htm

MOVING ON: "LLANTWIT":

Were you to investigate the 1885 OS map of Glamorganshire, scale 1 : 10560 and co-ordinates 296400, 172900 (ish), you'd find yourself a few miles north of Llantwit. You'd be at Nash Manor, a site boasting (in 1885) " Monastery .. Remains of". It also appears on the 1813-14 OS (thanks, BL Maps), as on the 1920s map detailed above. As far as OS was concerned, throughout* its C19th mapping of Nash Manor (and beyond), this had been the site of a monastery. So what? * See below for qualification of this.

This is the site ultimately thrown up by Michell's ("by") 'Llantwit' idea* - but it's probably just as well that his researches and investigations never turned up this mapped site, given the 'Monastries' mentioned above. We'd end up by there using John Neal's Appendix 6 of THE MEASURE OF ALBION, though - and there's a peculiarity that connects the site to Old Sarum, and that's St. Osmund, supposed nephew of William the Conqueror. He wasn't made a saint until the mid C15th AD but the Nash Manor chapel is named after him. There is also a C10th Celtic Cross 'slab' and a tumulus of a type unusual for the area there.

*As subsequently refined. It is John Neal, I believe, who provides Appendix 6 of THE MEASURE OF ALBION, the co-ordinates of the CPC sites. The 'Llantwit Major' given in the table there is situated just left/west of the Manor. My equivalent site is at/by Moorshead Farm.

I have to assume Heath, Neal and Michell never investigated the older OS maps. The Goring 'Temple' site reviewed above is noted, true, but that's with reference to a visit by Heath and Michell to the town and a private drive sign they saw there. And that, in itself, was enough to create 'appropriately called' (idea of sanctuary) The Temple! Similarly, even though Neal identified the co-ordinates of the Nash Manor site, it was still labelled 'Llantwit' in THE MEASURE OF ALBION, and the evocative, and atmospheric prose possibilities John Michell excels at - and inherent in the (impressive) foursome combination of Monastery-Glastonbury-Stonehenge-Temple - were never (it seems) provenanced, presented or, even, really (properly) spotted. Perhaps that's just as well, though, because the maps of the OS, C19th AD, all* show a monastery at Nash Manor but there never actually was one. Not there. Not ever.

(*Correction BL Maps told me they'd found Nash Monastery on the 1813-14 map. They kindly sent me a copy - my thanks, 24-11-04 - but there's no mentionof "monastery", ruins of or otherwise. 'All' should therefore read 'some' and - definitely! - post-1813).

Either OS got it wrong accidentally (through provenance misinformation) or it was got wrong by design* - and you can see just such a design in the phi chalice above of St. John, one of the two Freemasonry-associated Sts. John (St. Johns) of Jerusalem.

* Possible confusions exist twixt the(Black Monk) Benedictine Ewenny taken over by Howell Carne's second son and Nash Manor (acquired by the marriage of Howell to heiress Tibet Giles). there's also a possible confusion twixrNash Manor and the Cistercian grange at nearby Monknash. A correspondent of mine from Llantwit - and my thanks - told me Nash Manor was the one-time'holiday home' of an Abbot/Bishop/Prior.

Note re dockets OS surveyors had to provenance their map entries. Many of these dockets were destroyed in WWII. BL Maps cannot find those for Nash Manor Monastery.

This is an extract from the Historic Environment Record (and thanks to Glamorgan-Gwent Archeological trust Ltd):

!Note: my underlinings, 1911 AD - "Black Benedictines, who had a monastery here"! ... I think this ref is from Marie Trevelyan, 1910, LLANTWIT MAJOR ..... It is consistent was (erroneous) OS maps of the time. The underlining, of course, is mine. The St. Osmund's Chapel would seem to post-date the occupancy of the Bishops of Llandaff - a Giles family addition/renaming, perhaps? I think the monastery provenance is from Marie Trevelyan, LLANTWIT MAJOR - ITS HISTORY AND ANTIQUITIES, 1910 , p. 110). Marie notes the idea of Perpetual Choir in the book with reference to Llantwit as an eastern-originating early church practice revived by C5th AD St Iltyd - but was she drawing on Iolo?

"CROFT":

What of Michell's 'Croft' vertex, near Leicester, a site utterly impossible given the others and his original dimensions? The actual site would be just by a road called 'St Johns', the B4114, the River Soar flood-plain burial site of (King) Llyr (father of beheaded - like St. John - Bran the Blessed,of Eurgain connection et al), and the Fosse Way. The Latitude has no obvious import - but the Longitude appears to be circa 1 11 11 (W). The place is called Grove Park Triangle. There is an annual St. John's Day ceremony (and Johnstone) nearby.

The River Soar is just to the right and the remains of the St. John Church just to the right of that. Geoffrey of Monmouth puts the grave of Llyr/Leir/Lear hereabouts, by the bank of the Soar. The Fosse Way is to the left and Johnstone Spinney to the left of that. St Johns is the B4114. This site is a vertex of the St John's Chalice containing the River Severn as drawn above: it's the right side of the base.

So there is a St. John on this part of the St John Chalice (that can be) mathematically related to Point St. John, Lat 51 53 (51 X 3 : 53 X 5 is a Sq. Rt. 3alike ratio! and 51 53 is 3113' of Latitude where some say 3, 11, 13 and 33 are significant in Freemasonry - 3113 pretty much covers those 'bases')*. This Enderby CPC vertex site also sits on the stylised Midsummer (awen) sunrise line to ... Llyr's imaginary grand-daughter Eurgain the Virgin at Llantwit Major, another CPC site, and one discussed above..

*A bit of fun ... the Mayan time period due to end 2012 AD started 4125 years before: 3113 BC.

There's the ruin of a flood-plain church - St John the Baptist - near to my site 'fix' here, and this reminds me: I must make mention of the missing St John leper provision at Stony/Old Stratford. No-one seems to know exactly where it stood, but it was somewhere (also on a floodplain) near where 'x' marks the spot on the Watling (A5) - see the phi chalice, above.

The Pembrokeshire Coast west of St. David's and Latitude 51 53 N. Until fairly recently, naval maps did not carry 'Point St. John'. It was OS first carried the name and the date would be 1843. Earlier OS maps just carry Pencarnan ('Little Stony Head' - my attempt at translation). Whereas there was an earlier provenance for a relationship twixt St. John and the fields and shore at the site (circa 1800 AD, I found), there is no justification for producing "Point St. John" from the Welsh/English admixture documented. It's an invention!

However, it is an invention familiar to Leonardo Da Vinci buffs - the St John (the Baptist) 'Pointer' finger symbology visible in the Last Supper et al is digitally a code for something or other, I gather. It is now termed the 'John gesture'.

This is a translation taken from Harleian 3869, ANNALES CAMBRAIE (1 and 10)/BONEDD Y SAINT/SANT/SEINT.* There's no clue given as to who did the saying here, but we are looking at two genealogies: Morcant and Owain. The latter was a king of Deheubarth (a Welsh kingdom) mid-late C10th AD - and some date the document to that time (and C12th AD is certain). And this seems to be the source of the 'fuss'. The kings both trace their ancestry back to the 'shining one' Beli Mawr and to Anna. She 'is said to be' the cousin of the Virgin Mary.

*Note that the later ACHAU SAINT PRYDEIN is considered a later and corrupted development. The excellent Les Stills' Lundy, Isle of Avalon site carries the ACHAU details here: Bran the Blessed, Arwystli Hen,, his son Manaw/Maw, Ilid and Cyndaf, "Men of Israel". Reference is also made to unnamed "Welsh Manuscripts" carrying the threesome Ilid, Cydaf and his son Mawan. These are not identified in the source but are generally believed to refer to Joseph of Arimathea, his son Josephes and his brother-n-law (c/o Anna/Enygeus above) Bron/Hebron .... Bran. I've asked Les Stills about the source - the dodgy Liber Landavensis of Llandaff, perhaps?

To be fair, though, Dr. Rachel Bromwich's unadulterated Welsh Triads carry a reference to "the lineage of Joseph of Arimathea... Saintly ... of the Island of Britain" (Triad 81) as one of 3 notable family lines. So there is evidence of a tradition of the kin/descendants of Joseph in Britain. Other Cornish traditions noted by Les Stills support a British connection, possibly by way of tin-mining. Hence, perhaps, William Blake's "And did those feet", where the legend is that Jesus accompanied Josephto these shores? Note that Triad 81 (c/o Bromwich) comes in 2 versions. The second makes no mention whatsoever of a Joseph (or Ilid). I've asked the British Library to send me the Bromwich provenances for this triad and will update as and when. Probert's mention of a St Cyllin also ties to this Grail family of Eurgain, daughter of Caradoc. His sister.

STOP PRESS: reply here from British Library - and my thanks: Bromwich writes that Joseph was a replacement for the original entry, Caw of Pictland, possibly by a 'redactor' (editor) influenced by Graal stuff - so circa C12th AD (with Caw being unfashionable and, hence, 'obliterated').? Iolo Morganwg, she continues, replaced Joseph, in turn, with 'Caradoc, son of Llyr' (mentioning Joseph - as Joseph and not Ilid - in a footnote to this triad). This, says Bromwich, is a 'unique instance in which Iolo .. tampered with the text of the First Series. As far as I can tell, so far, 'Ilid' is not a Triad but he is in the 'Iolo MSS - see below. Bromwich suggests Iolo gave Joseph the boot (my phrase!) because he was enamoured of the idea Caradoc brought Christianity to these Isles. The Probert triads (notably 18) seem to indicate the threesome Caradoc, Cunneda Wledig and Brychan of Breconshire. Bromwich (81 and 81 C 18) carries Joseph of Arimathea, Cunedda Wledig (Kenneth the Great) and Brychan Bryeniog (of Breconshire) as well as the Caw of Pictland version

I would also direct you to a site that seems hybrid in that it gives Triad 18 as the Iolo 'Joseph' combination but Triad 86 CPC 84 in Iolo and 90 in Bromwich!) in identical terms to Probert's translated ANCIENT LAWS OF CANBRIA: http://tylwythteg.com/triads/triads.html : basically Glastonbury, Llantwit Major and 'Ambrosius in Ambresbury' (Stonehenge). This combination is pure Probert's 'take' on Iolo.

Note (01-11-07): Taliesin Willams (ab Iolo), 1848: A SELECTION OF (his dad's) ANCIENT WELSH MANUSCRIPTS ... , annotated. Page 508 on is interesting here: the text gives the Caw, Cunedda and Brychan three-some for the Holy Families but then derives Caw from Bran the Blessed, son of Llyr, father of Cyllin and Eigen (wife of Sarrlog of Caersarrlog ... Old Sarum) and accompanied from Rome by St. Ilid. Neat. And the other two? Descended from Ceol Godebog - think Beli Mawr, his Anna, and Lludd! Link - there's also an 1888 version that is searchable online. This text was edited by the Rev. Thomas Rice, not Taliesin, from p. 494 on, it seems - a death? Yes - the link finds P.473 and you need to "turn the pages' using the arrows to P. 494, footnote.

The other sources date to, roughly: 955 AD BONEDD Y SAINT/ANNALES CAMBRAIE (with the form of Welsh used indicating older provenance, I gather), 1200 AD ACHAU'R SANT, some triads (Peniarth 16 and 45) to late C13th AD, the WHITE BOOK at 1325 AD and the RED BOOK at 1400 AD. The LIBER LANDAVENSIS/BOOK OF LLAN DAV (of which the LLANDAFF CHARTERS are part) is housed in the Vatican, it seems, the orignal, that is, and dates to circa 1120-1140 as was an attempt to upgrade the status of the See of Llandaff. So Joseph lands there, it seems, rather than the more traditional Glastonbury! The author of ACHAU'R looks the real villain re Ilid, et al (Man/Men if Israel) so far. And inventive clerical forgery was far from unique ...

Search for Percy E Corbett, Cor of Ilid (where Eurgain - like Ilid, of ACHAU'R fame but not BONEDD - gets to be patroness of St Paul's Llanilid foundation where Aristobolus/ Arweystli Hen/Senex gets to be i/c, whilst Archdruid Bran the Blessed rules the roost in Siluria). You could explore the "SONNINI MS", the "PAULIAN (Cor of Ilid) MS", hope-of-israel, Andrew Collins (particularly useful here), et al et al (various relevant publications include Rev RW Morgan, PAUL IN BRITAIN (1860), Jowett's THE DRAMA OF THE LOST DISCIPLES (1961) and JW Taylor's THE COMING OF THE SAINTS (1969). Lost Tribes of Israel stuff/Llandaff rules OK!. There get to be THE TRIADS OF PAUL THE APOSTLE, preserved, apparently, by the Cor of Ilid, first Christian Church, and also "discovered" by Iolo in a pre-Reformation MS to become part of his infamous Series 111.

My BRISTOL CHANNEL article (Google Docs) - http://docs.google.com/View?docid=dhsvjc9j_0gd5gzz tells me Percy Corbett's WHY BRITAIN links Iolo Morganwg to Eurgain. He writes of 'the famous Iolo MS' that mentions her and of Jestyn ap Gwrgant (deposed C11th ruler of Glamorgan) and his C11th AD ref. to the 'saints of Cor-Eurgain' (although of Llan-ilid and not the Llanilltyd in Corbett). It was Iolo M. wrote the LIFE of JESTYN ...

Update 2: You would do well to heed the caveat in Andrew Collins' THE TWENTY-FIRST CENTURY GRAIL re provenances for things like Joseph/Ilid - I'll put up the link anon.* I decided to dig a little more myself and a character called merlyn, who seems passionate about these (and related) matters can be found at http://merlynscave.bravepages.com/llantwit.htm and http://wintersteel.homestead.com/The_Holy_Grail.html where he cites the Welsh Triads (which we've seen off), the Llandaff
Charters (which we've seen off) and "Welsh Chronicles". I had a look for these and for 'a selection ancient manuscripts' (which translates as the Iolo MSS - and we've seen that off, too - the Saint Ilid ... Eurgain(e) stuff) and we end up with the unimpeachable source of Maelgwyn of Llandaff, a 'mediaeval manuscipt attributed to ...' This Maelgwyn dated to circa AD 450, which isn't in the least bit mediaeval, and was the 'uncle of Arthur' (draw your own conclusions). This is the source for Joseph being buried at 'Avalon' and 'a grant of land ... by Gweirydd/Arviragus'. It is the 'attributed to' that's the problem here. There are no surviving manuscripts from circa AD 450. There is no evidence Maelgwyn of Llandaff ever existed! *Find the (lengthy) Collins ref. at http://www.andrewcollins.com/page/articles/avalon.htm

A curiosity is the collection of Pauline Triads, ten in all, I believe (though I've found a site with more!). They are said to have been preserved by the Cor of Llan-ilid (assoc. Eurgain(e) above) - Iolo again? See Corbett.

David Nash Ford, at www.britannia.com, points out Beli Mawr's a bit too old for her - perhaps, he suggests, there's been a conflation of the Mother goddess Anu with Mary's cousin. After all other saints (and dates, etc.) get superimposed on older traditions (Brighid becomes St. Bride, for example).

Somehow this grows. Anna has a brother, not mentioned in the genealogies, in Joseph of Arimathea, and she - or his daughter Anna (possibly same person? using 'cousin'; loosely) - marries Caradoc/Caratacus/Caractacus, son of (Archdruid) Bran the Blessed, son of Lludd/Lud/Naud/Nodens, son of Beli Mawr, husband of Don/Dana/Danu/Anu. So, unless there's been this conflation, Anna, possibly, marries her own grandson. Neat trick. Even neater given Bran the Blessed is the son of Llyr, not Lludd, who is married to Beli Mawr's (and Anu's) daughter, Penarddun, sister of Lludd. And even neater given Caradoc is the son of Cunobelinus, great grandson of Beli Mawr, making Anu/Anna wife of her own great great grandson. It's a mess. But out of it emerges the Virgin Foundress of Glamorgan, Wales and Britain, Princess Eurgain (Eigen in Taliesin ab Iolo).wife of Salog/Salisbury and associated with Llanilid and Llantwit (all mentioned above).

The children of Don (incl. Lludd and the children of Lludd/Nudd) and the children of Llyr are seen as quite separate in Welsh tradition - although some wonder whether Lludd and Llyr might be the same person ... or first cousins. Of note here, though, is the identification of Llyr/Leir/King Lear with Leicester. Particularly with an area near Dane Hills (the toots of Danu, to some) and the River Soar burial place of Lear. Now this would be where Michell's original maths would put us, and the site is more-or-less exactly indicated on the (Holy Grail) Phi Chalice detailed above: the Fosse Way, Enderby area. Lludd, meanwhile, appears on our 'story' at Lydney, River Severn, just across from from our where-the-lady's-legs-meet 'precious gem' at Berkeley.

For a beautifully written and presented exploration of the area of the CPC model centre, the Malverns, I highly recommend the site that pointed me upwards in the first place: http://moelbryn-eastnor.blogspot.com Moggz's picture of Eastnor from the top of Raggedstone inspired me not only to make the trip but also to climb the climb! At the top of which a breathless red-faced old me was confronted by skipping 'n jumping 4-year-olds.

Picture the property of Moggz of the White Leaf Collective and the website above. Thanks.

My derived centre for the Michell CPC centre isn't the Whiteleaved Oak site he gives but is slightly to the north and on Raggedstone, a site with death-shadow legend attached. The precise spot is just a little down the hillside behind where this shot of Eastnor was taken. As the base of the CPC is the Lat. mirror 51.115 - WhiteSheet Hill (by Great Bottom!) - so the centre is the Lat. mirror 52.025.* and ** and ***

The length of a degree of Latitude varies - the further north (or south) of the Equator you are the longer it gets. It follows that the length will change slightly depending on whether you are 'facing' north or south! Rough guides are that at 51 degrees N the value is 69.12631224098468 miles, at 52 degrees north 69.135165095, and, at 53 degrees north, 69.1499185 degrees north or so.

An angle from the Earth's centre to North Pole (1) and Parthenon's Great Circle azimuth (2) is said to be 52.03 degrees.

The difference 52.025 - 51.115 is 0.910 (albeit as a straight line describing a slightly curved surface, the Earth's - a design flaw admitted here!). The model angle is 3 degrees off OS 'up' (slightly off atlas north - which generates design flaw 2) ans I'm going to perform a plane geometry calculation on a curved surface ( = design flaw 3): 0.91 /Cos 3 = 0.91124. If I now muliply the Lat. value given above for 52 degrees (bearing in mind it is really a variable = design flaw 4) then our outcome is 63.00146 miles. The error is 2.5696 yards, approximately! (At 51 degrees it would be 17.6 yards - so you can see that, despite the flaws, we're going to be pretty close here!).

**52 is a number Gary Osborn finds as a thematic angle in art, 1515-1717 AD. It's also 234 X 4 ... where 23.4 describesthe tropical Latitudes, the other angle in a right-angled + 66.6 triangle, whilst also conspiring , decimal pointless,with its mirror, 432, to produce 666

*** Latitudes of interest that appear in this study include those associated with pi and phi, together with two "mirrors": 51.115 and 52.025. However, that's on an oblate earth. This was postulated by Isaac Newton in 1687 but not demonstrated (and by the French) until 1736-37. And the point? On a round or prolate earth they'd (most probable) be somewhere else. Somewhere north, given the same equator.

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Footnote: In the above I have been blessed with the help of so many people and institutions. My thanks!!!! It does indeed seem to obtain: 'Ask and .... ". Witness in this the great value in the internet as a research tool - this article has been largely built (and had its infinitives split!) on a computer in a small Norfolk village. I have to acknowledge, particularly, my own local library (Dersingham), the Goring and Streatley LHA, the British Library (BL, Emma et al at Maps and at Rare-Books!), the National Library of Wales (NLW/Martin!)), Bangor University Library, the Radnorshire Society Library, Keele University Library, the Ordnance Survey, English Heritage (Stonehenge), Staffordshire Library Service, Oxfordshire Studies, the various Historical Sites/Monuments and Records departments (once'SMR', now 'HER') of the counties the study 'visits', the Newtown Library, Moggz of the Malverns (Sam), George Firsoff, Chris Street, Paul Weston, Robert Vermaat, John Michell, Andy Evans (I commend his fascinating site http://www.wondersofbritain.org/, Simon Meecham Jones, PMac, "Goringgapwalks" (Bernard), Stephen Dail (of Celestial Chessworks), Derek Skhane, and .. well, everyone else really, be they saint or sinner! Most especially, I thank and pay tribute to my inspirations: John Michell, David Wood and Dr. Ian Campbell - without them, no this!

But pray heed to the caveat attached: the old maxims still apply regarding provenancing. Too many people are either too trusting, too much on-a-mission or just too plain idle to put in the 'hard miles'. The recycled drivel that results does the internet no service!

CPC (re)searchers might seek out Priest of Elen and ArchDruid John Merron (EARTHQUEST NEWS 1980s' article + 33-point spiral idea), Fred Stedman-Jones (PENDRAGON, various. incl. the fugitive stag), Michael Beckett (THE PYRAMID AND THE GRAIL, 1984) and relevant published articles by Michael Behrend (INSTITUTE OF GEOMANTIC RESEARCH - THE LANDSCAPE GEOMETRY OF SOUTHERN BRITAIN, 1976) and Paul Weston (AVALON, Autumn 1998) ... Or, there again, you might invite dowsing John Gibson-Forty round to recount his questing outcomes. I have invited the Johns Merron and Gibson-Forty to contribute/comment in the light of their own researches ... I've had contact with Mr. Gibson-Forty (24-07-11 - and my thanks) but, as regards the ArchDruid, good job I'm not holding my breath (geoffss, 1-07-11)! Mr. Gibson-Forty has a Whiteleaved Oak centre, Llantwit, Glastonbury and Amesbury ("near Stonehenge", and suported by Wiki! - the Welsh Triads refer not to Stonehenge but to the village of Amesbury which is two miles from Stonehenge. * with two supporting references given @ http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theories_about_Stonehenge) slightly variant CPC and he has, I gather, at least 1 other circle, too, centred where Essex, Herts and Cambs meet (I was told a total of 3 CPCs in all in an email from a rep. of Slimbridge dowsers): http://petergolding.net/HTML/three_perpetual_choirs_of_britain.html I note the interesting Wiki entry: "Amesbury was already a sacred place in Pagan times ... there are legends that a monastery existed there before the Danish invasions." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amesbury_Abbey My interest here concerns King Arthur's Guinevere as an Amesbury nun (Malory http://www.faqs.org/periodicals/201004/2035910301.html /Tennyson http://www.jrank.org/literature/pages/11855/Amesbury-Wiltshire.html ). Now the common foundation is C10th AD - so no Guinevere! But an older foundation destroyed C6th AD http://www.timetravel-britain.com/articles/towns/amesbury.shtml et al could house Guinevere ... and that would tie in nicely with Arthurian Lancelot as a monk at Glastonbury http://www.arthurian-legend.com/more-about/more-about-arthur-6.php and Arthurian St. Iltud/Illtud/Illtyd.Iltutus at Llantwit http://www.druidcircle.org/library/index.php?title=I noting here (michieviously) Arthurian Sir Galahad http://www.earlybritishkingdoms.com/bios/galahad.html , Round Table and Grail ...

Postscript: re musical scales (and somewhat appropriate in the context of Perpetual Choirs, n'est pas). The SOUND OF MUSIC's Do-Re-Me-Fa-So-La-Te-Do is recent. It is called the "Twelve-tone equal temperament" and is a 7 note scale on a 12 note octave. John Michell writes, I note, of a relationship twixt 7 and 12 (where one is, esoterically, the other) and a for instance that occurs is the the 7 Heavenly Bodies (Ptolmaic etc) and the 12 zodiac houses. Then there's the Nag Hammadi finds that mention the 12 disciples of Jesus + 7 female followers (SOPHIA OF JESUS and FIRST APOCALYPSE OF JAMES). There's also the simple 3 + 4 v 3 X 4, and there's the interfaces of a 2 X 2 X 2 cube (12) being just 7 when the eight cubes are lined up. But you can't fit the musical 7 and 12 to this idea until the C16th AD. There used to be a scale of 6 notes and it is called the Aretinian scale after C11th AD Guido of Arezzo (and "Just Intonation"- see also plainchant/plainsong). Guido used a C8th AD hymn by Paulus Dioconus about .... John the Baptist. Put to music - as a 'Gregorian chant' - it rises up through this earlier scale with the words picking out the letters of the old notes of the 6-noted ("hexachord") scale: Ut, Re, Mi, Fa, Sol, La. Look at words 1, 4, 6, 8, 10 and 12 (or their beginnings):

Ut queant laxis resonare fibris,
Mira gestorum famuli tuorem,
Solve pollutis labiis reatum,
Sancte Iohannes

From the C16th century on, increasingly, a seventh note was added. The same poem that illustrated the 6-note names sourced the name of the new comer : Si (now Te/Ti)*. These three are discoverable in Sancte Iohannes, Saint Iohannes, John the Baptist. We are looking, therefore, at note number 7, the virgin number, as note St John the Baptist, a noted virgin.

Do replaced Ut in the C17th AD. For more, search (ancient) Solfeggio scale, Aretinian, Guido of Arezzo, 'just intonation', plainchant/plainsong,and cymatics (the healing destructive - Walls of Jericho! - qualities of the older scale, allegedly, which, apparently, repairs DNA).

*I have to note some credit the French Le Marie, C17th AD, here. Te arrived in the C19th AD UK but is Ti/Si in the States. I found BREWER'S Ed. 14, p. 47 of especial use in this line of enquiry.

Of interest: the (supposed) Solfeggio Mhz values are those found in the 3 X 3 Magic Square: 492 over 357 over 816 say, all lines summing to 15. The scale (supposedly - see below) ascends 396 417 528 639 741 852 with the 2nd 3 as triplet "anagrams" of the first 3. Note both halves consist of the numbers 1-9 inclusive - just like the Magic Square. If you marked a strip of paper 1-9 inclusive and glued the end of 1 to that of the 9 (in a loop) then moves of 3s and 6s either way will find these and all their other triplet combinations - there are 18 in all. The 147s will sum to 666 X 4, the 258s to 666 X 5, and the 369s to 666 X 6. In total, then, that's 666 X 15 ..... which is rather evocative of the Devil card, Tarot 15? Nothing more ancient than C11th AD here, though ....... that I know of. "Mythmath" notes the 18 combinations I mention above on one of the discussion boards he contributes to as well - and this I acknowledge was long before I also worked it out. He also raises similar issues to those below:

Unfortunately, are we looking at just some wishful fanciful nonsense here? How does anyone know what the Aretinian Mhz were (pitch/cycles/vibrations per second/Hertz)? Well, one Dr.Joseph Puleo rediscovered them in 1974, apparently, after they had been long lost. He deduced them from NUMBERS, the Bible, I read. Chapter and verse .... or something like that ........ encodes/carries them. See http://www.relfe.com/bible_codes.html

"According to the documentation and analyses provided in "Healing Codes for the Biological Apocalypse" principal investigator Dr. Joseph Puleo was intuitively guided to find the pattern of six repeating codes in the Book of Numbers, Chapter 7, verses 12 through 83. When deciphered using the ancient Pythagorean method of reducing the verse numbers to their single digit integers, the codes revealed a series of six electromagnetic sound frequencies that correspond to the six missing tones of the ancient Solfeggio scale.

"The current division of the Bible into chapters and the verse numbers within the chapters has no basis in any ancient textual tradition. Rather, they are medieval Christian inventions" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chapters_and_verses_of_the_Bible*

"The original six Biblical frequencies are: 396, 417, 528, 639 741 and 852. The Pythagorean reduced pattern is 9,3,6,9,3,6. These frequencies have also been used to reconstruct the ancient Solfeggio scale and extended the frequency pattern." http://www.2near.com/edge/numerology/tones

Now it IS possible to have a musical scale that is not contained by an octave ... but, apart from the above I can't readily think of one ... Normally, note G2 would be note G1 X 2 (as in, say, 396-792 Mhz = scale in octave range http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Octave - and octave doubling was known by the Ancient Greeks). Here's some "Magic Squares" that show these (and other) 1-9 "trine" combos. They are in reverse (unless you flip it all over)**:

*Unless Stephen Langton (1205 AD) et mid-C16th AD al were somehow (if you'll pardon the phrase) "in the loop" on this, somehow, we have problems, Houston. And there are more: (1) we'd have to have invented the (unit of time) second - as well as a way of measuring it - and (2) we'd have to have a way of precisely counting vibrations within it. When do you think these things actually"arrived"? Hey nonny no, though, I may be missing something here ...........

*And another ickle "concern": Pythagoras deduced an octave by experiment, halving a string's length (doubling its vibrations per second = octave). So a G of 396 Mhz. to its octave going up gets us to 792 Mhz - whether we know about seconds, Mhz and counting them or not. The point? Well, the claimed recovered solfeggian scale isn't contained by a Pythagorean-deduced octave. Starts same place: 396 Mhz, but its top note is 852 Mhz and we're over the octave with one extra step yet to go .....

Returning to the Severn and its pure 'virgin' waters: REVELATION puts a tree of life on either side of the 'street' (course) of it. Now is that 2 trees of life, one either side, or is it just the one, straddling it? If the latter, then two things emerge: firstly the paths of the tree of life (22) give us 22 over Severn (virgin/7 and , ?, 'mind below', he phren/Hafren); secondly, we have the 10 sepirots to distribute on either side of this tree of life (where the river gets to be the gnostic serpent on its way out of Paradise!). Suppose they are our 10 decagon vertices ...